З нагоди 18-ої річниці Незалежності України своїми думками поділилася з Голосом Америки Надія Дюк – директор європейських та євразійських програм Національного фонду демократії – впливової неурядової організації, яку фінансує Конгрес США.

Дивіться інтерв’ю мовою оригіналу.

MG:
Joining us today at the Voice of America – Nadia Diuk, senior director for Europe and Eurasia at the National Endowment for Democracy. Thank you, Nadia, for coming today to our studio.

Ukraine is celebrating eighteen years of its independence. Do you think there is much to celebrate?

ND:
Oh, I think there is a lot to celebrate. I think that despite all the current political difficulties that Ukraine is going through the people need to remember that eighteen years ago Ukraine was not a name that slipped easily off the tongue of anyone who was looking at the world or looking at geopolitics in any way. And the fact that Ukraine has actually established an independent country with all of the institutions of an independent state I think is just phenomenal. As well, I think you have to pay attention to the fact that if Ukraine had not attained its independence I think the three Baltic states would have had much more difficulty in keeping hold of their independence. And I think other states such as Belorus and Moldova would not have had a chance and the three Caucasus countries as well would by no means have had independence.

MG:
So we would have a different Europe today?

ND:
We would have a different Europe, indeed.

MG:
What was the moment in the history of Ukraine’s independence, when the development of the country could have gone in a different direction?

ND:
It’s interesting to speculate the “what ifs” of history. However I do think there are some that could be highlighted when there were some disappointments. During the nineteen nineties, I think, there was a very vibrant and vigorous community of politicians and civil society organizations emerging in Ukraine. And I think around about the time of nineteen ninety-eight, nineteen ninety-nine, there was a pullback. And I think at the time not enough people were aware enough quickly enough that this was going to lead to the very difficult period of 2000-2004 where there was really a strong pullback on media freedoms, on freedoms of all kind as well. President Kuchma didn’t do himself any favors in terms of international relations with various items that were going on at that time. But then that did lead to the Orange Revolution. And I think the fact of the Orange Revolution, the way that it occurred, the way that it engaged the entire society, the way that it actually helped in a sense to unify East and West Ukraine, I think that has been a very positive thing.

MG:
Can we say that the Ukrainian people actually defended their independence in that period of time?

ND:
I believe, yes, they were… independence in a very broad sense. I think specifically those four years between 2000 – 2004. I mean anyone who was visiting Ukraine at that time really felt, talking to the man on the street, not only the politicians, that there was a narrowing of political space, of social space, that somehow the gains that had been promised after independence were being pulled back. And I think this was a reaction, a very sort of visceral and almost existential reaction to this pulling back. And also the desire to keep the momentum moving forward in a democratic direction, in a pro-West direction, for a great part of the population.

MG:
To what extent do you think Ukraine still remain terra incognita for the world?

ND:
Well, compared with how it was twenty years ago, when… You know, this was a nation of 52 million people, well, inhabitants. And I remember very distinctly the quote from Milan Kundera, the famous Czech author, who said, for decades now Ukraine, the world’s largest nation without a state, has been has been disappearing off the face of the Earth and no one has been paying any attention. Well, from that point to what we have now I think we’rv actually come a very long way. Now you never, very rarely get people saying, “Oh, Ukraine, where is that? It’s in Russia somewhere.” Maybe I’m going back very far now, to pre-independence days. But. I think, there is no mixing up Ukraine and Russia much anymore. Ukraine has its own identity, which, I believe, is evolving. It still has quite a way to go before it’s sort of fixed in people’s minds. But it’s seen in popular culture as well. I think sportsmen, pop stars, have done a lot to actually cement that image of Ukraine being a separate nation, a separate state with its own identity.

MG:
And the last question – I would like you to foresee the future of Ukraine, let’s say for the next ten years.

ND:
Next ten years…. My crystal ball, what do I see? Again, I think there is a generational factor at play. Even the generation of most of the candidates for president right now are still of the Soviet generation. They are people who not only went to school in Soviet times, but actually the first part of their career was pretty much conducted according to Soviet rules and regulations. And I think that cannot help but have some sort of impact on the way they see the world. I think that after these ten years I do already see younger politicians and civic activists, particularly in Ukraine, who view the world differently. They’ve traveled a lot more, they’ve spoken to people in the West a lot more, they see Ukraine as more a part of the world. They’re more aware of globalization. I think there will be some more difficulties over the next probably three to five years. But I think after ten years I fully expect to see Ukraine integrated much more into Europe, if not actually a candidate member or probably a member, maybe a member of Europe. Because it’s a very large country, it’s an important country. And I think, as well, the Europeans are just beginning to come to grasp with the fact that they have this large land mass, this large population, that is basically sort of waiting for to be admitted. And Europeans also need to think something, to do something constructive to make that happen.

MG:
So, the future of Ukraine is the new generation of Ukraine….

ND:
I would say so. That’s a very easy thing to say. But in a funny way, it’s true. I think you need to get rid of the last vestiges of Soviet man. The people who looked to Moscow went to the MGU [Moscow State University] for their education. And there are a lot of very smart Ukrainians in Moscow who just stayed there, because Moscow, of course, took the best and the brightest. Not to say that there aren’t very good people in Ukraine too. But I think a generation really…. You know, Moses had to lead the tribe around for forty years in the wilderness before they could create their own state. And I think there is something of that element that is going on in Ukraine now. The younger generation do have a different outlook. They have different expectations. They have a different level of energy. And I’m very hopeful that they will fulfill all of our ideals and asperations.

MG:
For Ukraine…

ND:
For Ukraine.